ARCHIVE https://www.somniaforum.net/thread/what-s-real-and-what-s-us Apr 2, 2006

What's Real and What's Us?

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AN
Anastasia_M
Thread Starter
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#1

This is going to be a long post. Bear with me.

We've been documenting our dreams of the city for a few weeks now. We're accumulating data. But we need to address a fundamental question: what exactly are we documenting?

There are several possibilities, and I want to lay them out clearly.

Possibility 1: Pure Coincidence

Multiple people having similar dreams of a white city by the sea. This is the skeptical baseline. We're pattern-matching on common archetypes. The "Mediterranean dream city" is a widespread motif. Our similarities are less remarkable than our minds make them seem.

Problem: This doesn't explain the highly specific shared details - the statue, the spiral fountain, the library-cathedral. Archetypes are usually vaguer than this.

Possibility 2: Shared Archetype

A step beyond pure coincidence. Maybe there's a specific archetypal city that multiple people can access through dreams - not "the same place" in any objective sense, but a shared pattern in human consciousness. Like Jung's collective unconscious made geographical.

Problem: This doesn't explain why some of us have dreams that feel different in quality - more consistent, more stable, more "real" - than our ordinary dreams of archetypal content.

Possibility 3: Collective Construction

We are building this city together. Our discussions, our shared expectations, our documentation - all of this is creating and reinforcing a shared dream space. The more we talk about it, the more real it becomes. We're not discovering the city; we're making it.

Problem: This is actually what I suspect is partly true. But it raises questions: how would collective construction even work? And it doesn't explain the experiences many of us had before we ever communicated with each other.

Possibility 4: Genuine Shared Location

The city exists, in some sense, independently of any individual dreamer. It's a "place" we can all visit, like a website anyone can access. Its geography and history are (mostly) fixed, and our job is to explore and document, not to create.

Problem: This requires a radical expansion of our metaphysics. What kind of "place" can exist in dream-space? What is it made of? How does it persist?

My Working Hypothesis

I think the truth is probably some combination of 3 and 4. The city may have some independent existence - or at least, some aspects of it are more stable and persistent than others. But our collective engagement also shapes it, reinforces it, perhaps even expands it.

If this is right, then what we're doing here matters. Our documentation isn't just recording a pre-existing reality - it may be helping to create and stabilize that reality.

This is why methodology is so important. If we're partly creating what we observe, we need to be careful about what we create.

Thoughts?

7 Replies
HA
Harlan_S
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#2

I've always felt like I'm visiting somewhere real. Not creating it. The details that surprise me - things I wouldn't have thought to imagine - feel like discovery, not construction.

But maybe that's what construction feels like from the inside?

CH
Charlotte_K
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#3

As an anthropologist (in training), this question fascinates me. When we study human cultures, we're always aware that observation affects what we observe. Ethnographers change the communities they document, just by being there documenting.

Maybe that's happening here. The city exists, but our observation is changing it. Or our observation is what makes it exist in the first place - the way a story only exists when someone tells it.

AN
Anastasia_M
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#4

The story analogy is interesting. A story has a kind of reality - it has structure, characters, history - even though it doesn't exist "physically." Maybe the city is like a story that's becoming increasingly detailed and consistent because more people are telling it.

NI
night_wanderer
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#5

I've been dreaming of this city since before I knew anyone else was. Before the internet made it easy to share these experiences. The city felt just as real then as it does now.

So I don't think we're creating it from scratch. But maybe we're... amplifying it? Making it more stable, more accessible?

OS
Oscar_V
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#6

Here's what I keep coming back to: the consistency across dreamers who've never communicated. Harlan drew the statue before finding it in the real world. People on different continents describe the same plaza. That's not collective construction - that's evidence of something that exists independently.

But I also notice that the city seems more detailed in my dreams since joining this forum. More stable. Like talking about it makes it clearer.

Both things can be true.

MA
Marcus_D
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#7

There's another possibility nobody's mentioned: what if the city was created once, by someone or something, and now persists on its own? Like a program that keeps running even after the programmer logs off?

In that case, we really would be exploring, not creating. But the city might still respond to our presence - it might be designed to do so.

AN
Anastasia_M
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#8

That's an intriguing thought. I've been reading some Soviet dream research - a scientist named Tumanov who worked in the 60s and 70s. He proposed something similar: "shared persistent realms" that are created once and then endure. His work was suppressed, so I only have fragments, but what I've found is remarkably consistent with what we're experiencing.

I'll share what I've found when I've finished translating.